Talk:Kazuya Aoi/@comment-106.71.14.113-20160329104904/@comment-197.89.84.208-20160402233750
@Anon: To be totally honest at this point, somehow, we seem to be talking totally past one another. I don't quite understand what you're saying, when did this become a discussion about power levels or such at all? I don't recall bringing up anything to do with power levels whatsoever. I don't really remember anyone mentioning anything about who's stronger or weaker or such. It is, after all, as you say; a no brainer. So in all fairness to you I'm sorry but I fail to see the relevance of your latest point. How strong a character is doesn't make me like them more or less, power is a totally irrelevant fact to whether I like a character. I like André, in part, because he's weak. He has no special in born powers, no natural talent, he wasn't born from special parents or with amazing gifts. But that doesn't make me like him less. If anything it makes me admire more the fact that, despite lacking all the things which make characters stronger than him so special, he still perseveres and puts everything on the line. He isn't special, he isn't strong and he isn't particularly popular or even cared about by people within the story. But he's still brave and willing to die even though, in the grand scheme of things, he'll most likely never mean much of anything to anyone. Hopefully, I'd assume, who a person loves doesn't come down to a matter of power. @Tachibana: I'm sorry but I must whole heartedly disagree completely with the statement that even if Arnett and Elly felt violated it does not constitute a violation of them. I will agree that Kazuya did not intend to violate them, certainly, but that does not change the fact that they were violated. Violation occurs when someone exceeds boundaries you are comfortable with. This can differ from person to person but is subjective. If a woman, for example, feels uncomfortable and violated if a man were to, for example, aggressively and without her consent touch her ass then, regardless of the intention of the man doing so, they should respect the woman's desire to not have it done to them. If Arnett and Elly have expressed the belief that they feel what Kazuya did to them was a violation of boundaries they wish to have and, additionally, have made clear they do not wish it to be done to them repeatedly than as human beings their wishes should be respected in this case. Again, for example, if a woman asks you not to do X because they feel uncomfortable when you do X to them then, regardless of whether you think X is bad, you should respect their desire to not have it done to the. I'm sorry but I disagree completely with the suggestion that it was not a violation. Arnett and Elly explicitly refer to it as such and, as it is their minds and bodies, they determine what boundaries and levels they feel Kazuya is or is not allowed to exceed with them. Kazuya does not determine what he is allowed to do to Pandora, they are rational beings with emotions, desires and aspirations who should be permitted, like all human beings, to determine what they are or are not comfortable with. It does not matter if it was 'simply their bodies responding to it by instinct' if they feel that such a response is a violation then it is a violation to them because it is an experience they do not want to have. Since they do not want to have this experience Kazuya has no right to force it upon them. Thus, while I still agree Kazuya intended no violation, it does not change that it was a violation and that they have both made clear they do not wish to have it done to them again. That is their right to decide as beings possessed of free will. Arnett and Elly should have the right to decide what is done with their bodies, minds and emotions. Just because Satellizer didn't feel violated doesn't mean Arnett and Elly can't feel violated. As already said different people will feel different things are a violation. Additionally as Satellizer has a long standing relationship with Kazuya she does not mind the affect of his Freezing on her. Elly and Arnett very clearly do not like, want or appreciate the affect of Kazuya's Freezing on them. That is their rights as beings with free will. No one should force them to experience it when they have made clear that they do not want too. I also really don't like your diminishing of Elly and Arnett's clear discomfort and disgust at what they felt by claiming that 'Roxanne had it worse'. The fact that there are people out there being tortured does not diminish the feeling of violation or the horror of a rape victim. Just because someone has suffered worse than you does not mean your own suffering is inconsequential or diminished. What happened to Roxanne was awful. What happened to Elly and Arnett was also awful. There is no need to argue that because Roxanne's was worse Elly and Arnett should just 'get over it'. They really don't like what Kazuya did to them. They are allowed to feel so. For example you mention the horror of Roxanne being made to turn on her own comrades. Consider how horrified Elly must have felt at the prospect that she could be made to kill André or her father and she'd have no power to stop it. Being mind controlled, enslaved, is a violation. That being said I'll again say, to make sure no one misunderstands, that I agree Kazuya did not intend it as such, but that was still what it was for Arnett and Elly and thus their feelings on the matter should also be respected. As for Ticy and Abel, I don't know, Ticy contemplates surrendering everything to Kazuya. If you surrender everything to a person how can you have anything left to give Abel? I feel really sorry for Abel to since he's an incredibly nice and polite guy who had a lovely partnership with Ticy where he espoused a feeling I really liked; that he didn't care how strong or weak Ticy was as a Pandora, power didn't matter to him, he just liked her for her. It is a great pity to me that earnestness of his feelings will now most likely never reach her if she surrenders everything to Kazuya. As for the NTR; 1) There is evidence to support the potential for NTR, why else would virtually everyone when the chapter originally came out have called it NTR otherwise? "but just because the Pandora will obey and be by Kazuya's side DOES NOT MEAN THAT ANYTHING SEXUAL OR ANYTHING LOVE RELATED IS GOING TO HAPPEN." I am sorry but I will try to again just make very clear why I think this is missing the point of my actual concern; if the Pandora will always obey all Kazuya's orders than that means they love Kazuya more than they love anyone else. If, Tachibana, you are arguing that the Pandora will always obey all Kazuya's orders then that means that he could order Elly to kill André and she would do so. If Elly is willing to kill André for Kazuya than, regardless of whether she does all that matters is if she is willing to, than that means that Elly is more willing to obey Kazuya's orders than she is willing to love André. Please explain how you can say the Pandora will obey all of Kazuya's orders, meaning they will do anything for him, but at the same time hold that they don't love Kazuya more than their own loved ones. I really don't think the general/soldiers metaphor works. Soldiers don't feel like their general has taken over their body, remember the Pandora under Kazuya's control don't even have control over their own physical actions, Kazuya manipulates them like puppets, so you can't at all compare that to soldiers simply following the instructions of their leaders. Additionally, please, to make clear, if a general orders a soldier to shoot their spouse they will virtually never do so. Kazuya can order the Pandora to do so and they will. I just don't understand how you can say something like 'if Arnett and Elly are willing to do anything for Kazuya it does not translate into NTR'. Of course it does! If your spouse is willing to do anything for some stranger; including kill you and have sex with that stranger than of course she does not love you as much as she loves that stranger. I am so, so, so sorry for this enormous and unsightly post, to everyone, really, right after I said I'd try not to but, but, to just dismiss Elly and Arnett's feelings of violation, to just say that all Pandora will obey Kazuya completely and be deprived of the ability to even disobey if they want to and then claim that it doesn't translate into NTR or doesn't, by its very definition, imply slavery really was something I felt I needed to respond to in depth because I felt a shallow response just wasn't right to such a serious matter. Tachibana, sorry, I can see clearly you and I have completely different understandings of the situation. Although what I say will seem unfair to you, from my side it simply seems as if you are saying that even if Elly is incapable of disobeying an order from Kazuya and would prioritize Kazuya's orders over her relationship with André it somehow doesn't mean that Elly values Kazuya more than André when, clearly, it does. I'm sorry for trying to engage you in discussion, I believe we will most likely not be able to reach any consensus on this, I am sorry about that. There is just one simple question, the thing which terrifies me that you mention; "Would Elly be willing to kill André if Kazuya ordered her too?" or, if you want a more general formulation; "Does Elly value obedience to Kazuya above her own relationship to André?"